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Diane
Joined: 20 Oct 2007
Posts: 592
Location: New York City
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 Posted: Sat Nov 10, 2007 3:49 am Post subject: We Are Change - September threads on right wing views |
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In the thread Listening to Air America today on 9/11 Truth (here on Truth Action), there was some discussion about the right wing ideologies that have been promoted within the 9/11 Truth movement. These right wing ideologies have been heavily promoted within We Are Change, among other places.
Back in September, I made a first stab at questioning these ideologies on the We Are Change message board. I soon pulled out, realizing that I was not really prepared yet to debate with these folks. But I did save copies of the relevant threads. In case people here are interested, I'll post copies here.
On September 18, in a section titled "Have it Out!" in a sub-forum called "The Pit of Debate," I posted a thread titled "Questions about political views of We Are Change." Below is a copy of the first several posts in that thread:
| Quote: |
Questions about political views of We Are Change (Read 68 times)
Diane
Posts: 23
Questions about political views of We Are Change
Hi! I'm fairly new to the 9/11 Truth movement. I first got
interested a few months ago, via an anti-war/pro-impeachment event I
attended in late June. These past couple of months I've spent a
lot of time studying various 9/11 Truth websites, especially Jim
Hoffman's sites. I've attended several meetings and events held
by New York 9/11 Truth. I participated in We Are Change's rallies
last week Tuesday afternoon, and I attended the event that We Are
Change held at the church by Washington Square on Tuesday evening. Regarding the We Are Change events, I have some mixed reactions, which I would like to share.
First, the good stuff: The events seemed to me to be very well
organized, with lots of rousing speeches. In particular, Alex
Jones gave an excellent speech outside the police headquarters.
And having "Security" people to keep order, to help avoid trouble
with police, was a good idea. On the whole you did a very good
job, especially given that We Are Change is apparently a new
organization. (Someone told me it is only five months old -- is
that correct?) But there are some things I'm not entirely comfortable with, and about which I'd like to ask some questions.
First, a question: Is We Are Change intended to be an
organization devoted just to 9/11 justice issues, or does it have a
larger agenda? If the latter, how would you define that larger
agenda? Second, this page on the We Are Change website says: Quote:We
recognize that the world does not function through a left/right
paradigm, but a top/down hierarchy that threatens to destroy free
society as we know it. This to me seems very
oversimplified. I agree that there is a top/down hierarchy which
threatens to destroy free society as we know it. And I would
agree that the "left/right paradign," by itself, is an
oversimplification of politics. But this DOESN'T mean that the
"left/right paradigm" is completely meaningless or nonexistent, or that
it doesn't play a real role in the world. Politics is
multi-dimensional. There are many different kinds of people in
politics, with many different kinds of goals. Of course the
elites have vastly disproportionate power and are always trying to grab
even more power, but there have ALSO been plenty of grassroots
movements of various kinds, some successful, some not. And the
terms "left" and "right" do refer to real groupings of people and
ideologies, even if they aren't the be-all and end-all. I would
agree with you if you were to say something like, "9/11 is an issue
that transcends left vs. right. All who care about our country
should question what really happened on 9/11." But, to say that,
it's not necessary to deny that "left" and "right" exist, or that they
have a real role in the world. And it seems to me that We Are Change takes a few positions that are decidedly right wing, without acknowledging them as such.
The most obvious of these is the endorsement of Ron Paul but not Dennis
Kucinich. For more about this, see my Reply #12 in the thread Helping RON PAUL.
Another is the frequent use of the term "New World Order," a term most
commonly used by extreme right wingers to refer to the aggregate of
things that they disapprove of, all of which are alleged to have been
orchestrated by an elite conspiracy for some nefarious purpose.
When right wingers fulminate against the "New World Order," sometimes
they are warning against real dangers, but more often it comes across
to me as total nonsense -- and sometimes very offensive nonsense, too.
I'll give some examples in a later post. Does We Are Change aim to transcend the left vs. right dichotomy? If so, why does it lean so heavily toward the right?
Also it seems to me that We Are Change has taken stances on a few
issues that aren't necessarily right wing, but which, at the very
least, don't seem to me to be particularly relevant to 9/11.
One of these is the Federal Reserve system. There are plenty of
legitimate criticisms of the Federal Reserve system (see the Wikipedia article about the Federal Reserve system),
but what does that issue have to do with 9/11? If the point is to
try to see 9/11 in a larger institutional context, it seems to me that
the military-industrial complex -- the set of businesses that profit
directly from war, and which depend on the military for their very
existence -- is far more relevant to 9/11 than is the banking system or
the monetary system. Yes, banks have made profits from war, but
banks make profits from a lot of other things too. Banks don't need
war the way the military-industrial complex does. Obviously any
politician with ties to the military-industrial complex will be
strongly tempted to find or even manufacture fake pretexts for war.
That being the case, why does We Are Change seem to be a lot more
concerned about the Federal Reserve system than about the
military-industrial complex? More later about the "New World Order."
Diane
Junior Member
Posts: 23
"New World Order" - Why I don't like that term
truthrevolution
Junior Member
Posts: 38
Re: Questions about political views of We Are Chan
Diane, ...
The folks of WeAreChange and myself have done so much research on New
World Order that there's just not enough time to get into the immense
amount of details of how 911 pertains to the New World Order.
You need to start looking much farther back into history to even begin to understand it all.
About FreeMasonry, the infiltration of FreeMasonry by The Illuminattii
Nazi Zionists and the Rothchilds, Adam Weishop who founded the
Illuminati of Bavaria on May 1, 1776 for the purpose of ruling the
world by controlling the banks etc.
911 plays so many parts in the whole thing in too many ways to even mention.
For one thing, it helped to introduce terror into Americans so they can
introduce The Patriot Act which is just another set of words for Loss
Of Liberty and Privacy for Americans.
Also this set things in
motion to take over the middle east, the last set of countries that
aren't ruled by the Rothchilds banking system.
The New World Order is taking place right before your eyes and you don't even know it.
Just look at how currencies and countries are merging.
Next it will be the U.S., Mexico, & Canada because now with the
failing U.S. dollar and since so many companies in Canada rely on the
U.S. dollar it will be easy for the three countries to agree that we
now need a North American Union just like all the other countries, then
eventually these blocks of unions will merge and.... walla! One World
Administration and who better to run the One World Administration? the
United Nations.
By the way, 911 are occult numerology studied by FreeMasonry who study Kaballah.
I've seen FreeMasons openly admit that they are for One World Govt.
You need to also research the nazi's & Zionism, now most people would ask... but aren't the Jews Zionists?
You need to research the Protocols Of The Learned Elders Of Zion but
keep in mind while reading it that this was a forgery of the non
semetic jews or Khazars (fake Jews) & Nazi/Zionists themselves to
promote propaganda to get the German people behind the Nazi Movement to
create a holocaust and create sympathy to get the British to create a
state in Israel where the real Nazi/Zionists now reside.
Read about Mount Zion and FreeMasonry and see the connection.
So there is no antisemitism here, what I'm saying is that real Jews have been framed.
You need to start back early in history and work your way up to the present.
Also you are doing exactly what they want you to do by categorizing WeAreChange for being on the right.
Only in politics is there a right & left, when you want to search
for truth, you can't be partisan, you need to stay in the middle where
it is safe from lies and categorization.
Even the parties are on
the same side, just research Skull & Bones who Kerry & Bush are
both members who are also affiliated with the Illuminatti
You
know why that young man was tasered on TV? he asked Kerry about his
affiliation with Skull & Bones but you won't see that on main
stream media.
Ask a question and you get tasered???? ooooo k
No red, no blue, only the color purple.
This is your country dying Diane, research and stay on the side of truth.
peace & love
truthrevolution
Junior Member
Re: Questions about political views of We Are Chan
By the way Diane...
You started of very subtle but I think you're trying to discredit WeAreChange and the truth altogether.... hmmmm.
What do you think folks? Could she be a plant??
Diane
Junior Member
Posts: 23
Re: Questions about political views of We Are Chan
Do you consider anyone in the 9/11 Truth movement who disagrees with your political beliefs to be a "plant"? Does We Are Change not welcome debate about its political beliefs even in the "Debate" section?
Whether such debate is or is not welcome, it might be a good idea to
announce a clear and specific policy on what kinds of debate are
welcome here.
Orangutan.
Junior Member
Re: Questions about political views of We Are Chan
I've noticed Diane seems to be trying to get us off course with weird
criticisms and ramblings. Hopefully she isn't getting paid to do
that with our nation's tax money, but regardless. Hopefully she
is just a newcomer who hasn't worked her way through the issues and
come to the appropriate responses when confronted with them.
Other than that. Keep up the pace. As we get stronger
and closer to the tipping point I'm sure the elites' dis-info agents
will be called in to focus more of their attention on us. And as
our website gets more effective, I'm sure we'll see more of these
parasites trying to paralyze us with unnecessary debate and distractive
issues etc. More power to us.
And what the hell happened to the theatrical release of Loose Change:
Final Cut. Damn it. That was going to be big. Ughhh.
"The Truth is an Offense, But not a Sin!" ~ Bob Marley.
Diane
Junior Member
Posts: 23
Re: Questions about political views of We Are Chan
Orangutan, I'm sorry you find my comments "weird." No, I'm
certainly not getting paid to post messages on this board. I'll
probably be leaving here soon, since my participation here seems to be
unwelcome, and since it seems that my worldview may be too different
from that of We Are Change for my continued participation to be
productive.
I'm a person who has done a great deal of thinking and learning about
various political matters over the years. Obviously I've reached
very different conclusions from some of the ones commonly accepted
here.
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I'll post copies of other relevant We Are Change threads here soon.
_________________
Diane
New York City Activist |
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Col. Jenny Sparks
Joined: 15 Aug 2007
Posts: 2329
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| Posted: Sat Nov 10, 2007 4:19 am Post subject: |
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First of all my sympathies. It doesn't look as if they read the details of your position/questions to give them fair consideration. That's irritating when you've made scrupulous, detailed efforts to not be misunderstood. You started out strong by being honest with your experience and giving them a thumbs up for what you agreed with. In most circumstances, that's sufficient to ally most concerns about "plants" or at least to give you a fair shake that you have a simple disagreement.
That said, there is something about your style that set my "flags" off and I've been reserved about responding until I got a better feel for where you're coming from: your scrupulous precision of sorting out every point in minute detail(which is NOT a bad thing) can sound exactly like a shill using details to obfuscate what is basically a straight forward issue(when the issue is straightforward). Especially if someone is just skimming over your piece and thinks it is a straightforward issue, but they disagree with you.
This is not your fault, or a flaw--your style is your style and some people are going to like it and it's going to rub others the wrong way. It is, what it is. But, this might explain the rush of some to call agent or shill in the current climate.
However, even if true, it is irresponsible to dismiss someone's position as a "plant" just because of their style. They really should have responded to your concerns first--as presented they sound reasonable. 
BTW: I think attacks directed against one of my people basically boil down to certain quarters not liking his style--adults should be able to distinguish style from substance.
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Diane
Joined: 20 Oct 2007
Posts: 592
Location: New York City
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| Posted: Sat Nov 10, 2007 4:22 am Post subject: Problems with the term "New World Order" |
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Below is another thread I posted on We Are Change back in September. In it I refer to, among other things, the anti-gay, anti-feminist, and general religious right wing stuff on Prison Planet. Some of that stuff can be found in an area on Prison Planet called Moral Meltdown. Among other things, the thread below contains my response to Prison Planet's article on Gloria Steinem and the CIA (featured in the "Moral Meltdown" area).
| Quote: |
Problems with the term "New World Order"
Diane
Junior Member
Posts: 23
Problems with the term "New World Order"
Two days ago, in the thread Questions about political views of We Are Change, I promised to explain my objections to the term "New World Order."
The phrase "new world order" was originally used by various world
leaders in the context of foreign policy. (For a long series of
examples, see the Wikipedia articles on the New World Order. In contrast, see also the Wikipedia article on the New World Order (conspiracy).)
In a speech in 1990, George H.W. Bush used a desired "new world
order" as a justification for the first Gulf War. As the
Wikipedia article on New World Order notes, citing the New York Times,
"the American left was calling the new world order a 'rationalization
for imperial ambitions' in the Middle East, while the right rejected
new security arrangements altogether and fulminated about any
possibility of UN revival." However, since then, the
term "New World Order" has been used by lots of people (mostly extreme
right wingers of various kinds, but also some radical Greens) as a
catch-all demonization of all things that they happen to disapprove of,
all of which are alleged to have been orchestrated by a vast elite
conspiracy for some nefarious purpose. Apparently, some folks
believe that the only reason anyone could possibly disagree with them
about anything whatsoever is because the other person has been
manipulated by a malignant conspiracy. Within all the
fulminating against the "New World Order," there ARE some valid
concerns about real trends toward tyranny, or at least a danger of
tyranny. But the real concerns are too often swamped
out by nonsense. Perhaps some of the nonsense may be deliberate
disinfo, to distract people from a realistic assessment of the
powers-that-be. Or perhaps it's just a result of sloppy thinking,
or perhaps just alternative media sensationalism for the sake of
getting attention and making money. In any case, the term "New
World Order" has become a magnet for all manner of embarrassingly wacky
nuttiness -- as exemplified, for example, on the "9/11 Origami
Prophecy" website discussed in the thread Folded US dollar bills depiction of 9/11 event.
And, it seems to me, the last thing the 9/11 Truth movement needs
is to be associated with all this nonsense. This sort of thing is
a sure way to make ourselves look like the kooks that too many people
already believe we are anyway. Below are some more examples of anti-"New World Order" nonsense: [To be continued in a reply to this post, since I ran out of room....]
Diane
Junior Member
Posts: 23
Below are some more examples of anti-"New World Order" nonsense: On PrisonPlanet I found the article Gloria Steinem: How the CIA Used Feminism to Destabilize Society
by one Henry Makow, who claims, "In the 1960's, the elite media
invented second-wave feminism as part of the elite agenda to dismantle
civilization and create a New World Order."
Second-wave feminism was, most certainly, NOT a mere media creation.
It was a grassroots movement that was eventually coopted to some
extent by the mass media. Most of the founders were white women
who had been active in the civil rights (for blacks) movement, and who
then came to recognize that they too were in some ways treated like
second-class citizens. These women were NOT media stars.
As alleged evidence for his claim, Henry Makow brings up Gloria
Steinem's past CIA connection. Back in the 1050's, Gloria Steinem
had headed an organization that turned out to be a CIA front.
However, Gloria Steinem did not get active in the feminist
movement until around 1970, AFTER the movement had already gotten off
the ground. So, if indeed she still had a connection with the CIA
by the time she got involved in feminism, this would indicate nothing
about the movement's founding or its purpose. All it would prove
is that she, as editor of Ms. magazine, was in a good position to spy on the movement.
Ironically, Henry Makow seems to have gotten his information about
Gloria Steinem's CIA connection from an article by some of the
movement's actual founders. The group Redstockings, which he
mentions, included Kathie Sarachild, who wrote the first paper on
feminist consciousness-raising, and Carol Hanisch, who coined the
slogan, "the personal is political." (I have spare
copies of some old feminist writings from the late 1960's and
early-to-mid-1970's, including the Redstockings article on "Gloria
Steinem and the CIA," in case anyone is interested. Also, for
some of the movement's early history, I recommend the book Rebirth of Feminism) by Judith Hole and Ellen Levine.)
Also on PrisonPlanet, I found some articles claiming that the gay
rights movement, too, is part of some elite plot to destroy
civilization. That too is ridiculous. The gay rights
movement is a grassroots movement that eventually won some corporate
support. I was once close friends with someone who devoted her
life to that movement, so I know quite a bit about it. The gay
rights movement fought steadily for several decades, as a grassroots
movement, before it finally began to attain any significant mass media
respectability. To the extent that it has attracted elite
support, the most likely real reason is simply that the ruling class,
just like the rest of the population, has its share of gays. (I
would expect the majority of rich folks not to care about the issue all
that much, one way or the other.) The history of the gay rights
movement is worth studying, as an example of how to build a successful
grassroots movement. By the way, I sure hope that We
Are Change does not endorse either the anti-feminism or the
anti-homosexual bigotry of some of the writers at Prison Planet.
That would be a sure way to alienate lots of New Yorkers,
especially in downtown Manhattan, and for no good reason.
To be fair, Alex Jones has done some very good work. His video
"Terrorstorm" is an excellent expose of past false flag operations
(except that I would be more inclined to blame not "the New World
Order" but rather the military-industrial complex plus the age-old
tendency of rulers to grab more and more power). And I admire his
efforts to defend the Constitution and civil liberties, and to win the
police to our side. But the PrisonPlanet website has succumbed to
at least some of the pitfalls of anti-"New World Order" thinking. [To be continued in another reply....]
Diane
Junior Member
Posts: 23
Still more nonsense, and religious bigotry too
Another problem with much anti-"New World Order" thinking is that it
has often been used as a justification for religious bigotry of all
sorts.
For example, I didn't have to look very far to find quite a bit of
anti-Catholic bigotry right here on this message board. See, for
example, the threads Whore of Babylon and Quotations Concerning the Jesuit Order,
which I would expect any Catholic here to find extremely offensive.
That's the last thing we need, especially given that many NYC
cops and firefighters are Catholic. Luckily I haven't
yet found any similarly blatant anti-Jew bigotry here on this board.
But that, too, is all too common among folks who denounce an
alleged "New World Order." There are also plenty of
anti-"NWO" Catholic traditionalists who blame the NWO for Vatican II.
(In many cases, these folks also blame the Catholic Church's
pedophilia scandals on an alleged infiltration of the Church by a vast
conspiracy of "Satanic pedophiles," rather than on the natural tendency
of a celibate priesthood to attract people who don't have a socially
acceptable sexual outlet anyway, such as pedophiles.)
The "NWO" is also used as a justification for bigotry against
non-Abrahamic religions. Usually this takes the form of
sensationalistic tales about alleged "Pagan" or "Satanic" rituals
conducted by various elite fraternities -- as if their rituals are
likely to have a serious religious purpose of any kind, rather than
mainly just group bonding. An over-the-top example is the thread MOTIVE FOR BLOWING UP WTC, in which the attacks of 9/11 are blamed on "Wiccans."
Perhaps because of all the NWO-talk, or perhaps for other reasons too,
the 9/11 Truth movement seems to be afflicted by more than its share of
religious bigotry. I don't remember where I read this, but I
recall reading, somewhere, that some folks in the 9/11 Truth movement
have a problem with Steven Jones's Mormonism. I've also heard and
read that some folks here in New York have a problem with Les
Jamieson's Urantia. In my opinion, religion-based
bigotry of any kind is utterly unbecoming of Americans and especially
New Yorkers. In my opinion, a 9/11 Truth activist's religion
shouldn't be anyone else's business except in the rare case of a
religion that directly interferes with a person's ability to think
rationally about 9/11 (e.g. a hypothetical religion which involves,
say, channeled messages claiming that the Pentagon was hit by an alien
spacecraft, or something like that). For all the above reasons, I would strongly suggest that the term "New World Order" be jettisoned.
It would be far better to focus, in a more down-to-earth way, on
determining exactly who the actual 9/11 culprits were, using only the
kinds of evidence that would have a decent chance of holding up in
court against even the world's best defense attorneys. In my
opinion, the perpetrators most likely AREN'T a vast conspiracy, just a
small but powerful high-level cabal.
truthrevolution
Junior Member
Posts: 38
Re: Problems with the term "New World Order"
Diane, ...
The folks of WeAreChange and myself have done so much research on New
World Order that there's just not enough time to get into the immense
amount of details of how 911 pertains to the New World Order.
You need to start looking much farther back into history to even begin to understand it all.
About FreeMasonry, the infiltration of FreeMasonry by The Illuminattii
Nazi Zionists and the Rothchilds, Adam Weishop who founded the
Illuminati of Bavaria on May 1, 1776 for the purpose of ruling the
world by controlling the banks etc.
911 plays so many parts in the whole thing in too many ways to even mention.
For one thing, it helped to introduce terror into Americans so they can
introduce The Patriot Act which is just another set of words for Loss
Of Liberty and Privacy for Americans.
Also this set things in
motion to take over the middle east, the last set of countries that
aren't ruled by the Rothchilds banking system.
The New World Order is taking place right before your eyes and you don't even know it.
Just look at how currencies and countries are merging.
Next it will be the U.S., Mexico, & Canada because now with the
failing U.S. dollar and since so many companies in Canada rely on the
U.S. dollar it will be easy for the three countries to agree that we
now need a North American Union just like all the other countries, then
eventually these blocks of unions will merge and.... walla! One World
Administration and who better to run the One World Administration? the
United Nations.
By the way, 911 are occult numerology studied by FreeMasonry who study Kaballah.
I've seen FreeMasons openly admit that they are for One World Govt.
You need to also research the nazi's & Zionism, now most people would ask... but aren't the Jews Zionists?
You need to research the Protocols Of The Learned Elders Of Zion but
keep in mind while reading it that this was a forgery of the non
semetic jews or Khazars (fake Jews) & Nazi/Zionists themselves to
promote propaganda to get the German people behind the Nazi Movement to
create a holocaust and create sympathy to get the British to create a
state in Israel where the real Nazi/Zionists now reside.
Read about Mount Zion and FreeMasonry and see the connection.
So there is no antisemitism here, what I'm saying is that real Jews have been framed.
You need to start back early in history and work your way up to the present.
Also you are doing exactly what they want you to do by categorizing WeAreChange for being on the right.
Only in politics is there a right & left, when you want to search
for truth, you can't be partisan, you need to stay in the middle where
it is safe from lies and categorization.
Even the parties are on
the same side, just research Skull & Bones who Kerry & Bush are
both members who are also affiliated with the Illuminatti
You
know why that young man was tasered on TV? he asked Kerry about his
affiliation with Skull & Bones but you won't see that on main
stream media.
Ask a question and you get tasered???? ooooo k
No red, no blue, only the color purple.
This is your country dying Diane, research and stay on the side of truth.
peace & love for all people !!! Just say no to hate!
Diane
Junior Member
Posts: 23
Re: Problems with the term "New World Order"
truthrevolution wrote: Quote:This is your country dying Diane, research and stay on the side of truth.
peace & love for all people !!! Just say no to hate!
I agree that our country is in grave danger, and I agree about saying
no to hate. One of my problems with the anti-"NWO" crowd is the
tendency of many of these folks to shoot their own alleged cause in the
foot by advocating all sorts of bigotry, especially sectarian religious
bigotry, some examples of which I mentioned in earlier posts.
More examples further down in this post. Quote:911 plays so many parts in the whole thing in too many ways to even mention.
For one thing, it helped to introduce terror into Americans so they can
introduce The Patriot Act which is just another set of words for Loss
Of Liberty and Privacy for Americans.
Also this set things in motion to take over the middle east Obviously these are among the neocons' aims.
As I said earlier, I do see kernels of truth in the "NWO" theorizing.
One of these is that the world is now and has long been, to a
large degree, ruled indirectly by cliques of very rich folks. I
don't believe that these cliques micromanage society to the quite
degree that "NWO" theorists tend to believe, but, obviously, rich folks
are indeed dispropotionately influential. And, of course, they
are going to try to manipulate society in ways that serve their class
interests. However.... Quote:the last set of countries that aren't ruled by the Rothchilds banking system.
Why single out the Rothschilds? I'm sure there are plenty of
other banking families who would love to get their fingers into the pie
too. By the way, singling out the Rothschilds, who
happen to be Jewish, while ignoring WASP banking families, is a great
way to alienate the large proportion of New Yorkers who happen to be
Jewish. (Of course the OLDEST banking families are Jewish,
because medieval Christians were not allowed to lend money at interest.
But there have been plenty of wealthy non-Jewish bankers since
then.) On a similar note, bashing Freemasonry is a
great way to alienate lots of Americans in other parts of the country.
The Masons and similar fraternities aren't nearly as popular as
they once were, but lots of ordinary Americans have grahdparents or
other relatives who are/were members of such orders.
About the Khazars: The relationship, if any, between the ancient
Khazars and today's Jews is a controversial question. In any
case, calling the Khazars "fake Jews" seems to me a bit presumptuous.
Judaism does recognize what it considers to be valid conversions.
There was indeed some collaboration between the Nazis
and Zionists. But what, if anything, this has to do with Khazar
ancestry (or lack thereof) is another question. Quote:Also
you are doing exactly what they want you to do by categorizing
WeAreChange for being on the right. Only in politics is there a right
& left, when you want to search for truth, you can't be partisan,
you need to stay in the middle where it is safe from lies and
categorization. If you want to avoid being partisan, why endorse Ron Paul but NOT Dennis Kucinich? Quote:The folks of WeAreChange and myself have done so much research on New World Order
When you say you've done research, have you looked only at sites and
books advocating the ideas you believe in about the NWO, or have you
also looked at sites and books critiquing those claims? Also,
have you done much study of politics in general, apart from the claims
of the NWO theorists? Anyhow, here's another
problematic paradox: Suppose you were to succeed in uniting all
the rest of society against the elite. The next question is, how
do you get rid of cliques of rich folks? Short of killing or
imprisoning them all, it seems to me that the only other way would be
to tax them out of existence via a combination of steeply graduated
income taxes and steeply graduated estate taxes (and eliminating lots
of loopholes). But most anti-"NWO" folks are, also, fervently
anti-tax, thereby depriving themselves of the one weapon that would
have a chance of working, short of mass slaughter or mass imprisonment.
But it's highly unlikely that the anti-"NWO" movement
could ever succeed in uniting any large group of people, because nearly
every anti-"NWO" website I've ever looked at has also advocated some
form of religion-based bigotry or other such repulsive, divisive
attitude.
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Diane
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Diane
Joined: 20 Oct 2007
Posts: 592
Location: New York City
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| Posted: Sat Nov 10, 2007 4:41 am Post subject: "Whore of Babylon" - fundy anti-Catholic preaching |
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Below is a WAC thread titled "Whore of Babylon," featuring traditional fundamentalist Protestant anti-Catholic sectarian preaching. What I found most disturbing about it was that the author of this thread, "Conspiracy Center," was NOT regarded as a troll, but, on the contrary (judging by other threads I haven't copied here), seemed to be very much a part of the in-crowd. I was also concerned that such posts could be extremely alienating to New York City's cops and firefighters, many of whom are Catholic.
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Whore of Babylon
Conspiracy Center
Junior Member
Posts: 11
Whore of Babylon
09/11/07 at 12:53:23
Revelation 17:1-17:4 17:1- And
there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and
talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the
judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters: 17:2- With
whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the
inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her
fornication. 17:3- So he carried me away
in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet
coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten
horns. 17:4- And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet
colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a
golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her
fornication: Roman Catholicism-    Revelation 17:5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. Babylonian fish god Dagon-    Revelation 17:6 And
I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the
blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with
great admiration.  "For teaching faith contrary to the teaching of the Church of Rome, history records the martyrdom of more than 100 million people." - Brief Bible Readings p. 16 Revelation 17:9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.  "It is within the city of Rome, called The City of Seven Hills, that the entire area of Vatican State Proper is now confined" - The Catholic Encyclopedia, p. 529. Revelation 17:15 And
he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore
sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues. 
The 2006 edition of the Annuario Pontificio, the official Vatican
yearbook, reports that the world population of Catholics is over
1,098,000,000. Revelation 17:18-18:8 17:18- And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth. 18:1- And
after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having
great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory. 18:2- And
he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is
fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold
of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird. 18:3- For
all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and
the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the
merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her
delicacies. 18:4- And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. 18:5- For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities. 18:6- Reward
her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to
her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double. 18:7- How
much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment
and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am
no widow, and shall see no sorrow. 18:8- Therefore
shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and
she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who
judgeth her.
Diane
Junior Member
Posts: 23
Re: Whore of Babylon
Reply #1 - 09/18/07 at 23:07:46
What is the relevance of this to 9/11 truth? Surely you're not
accusing the Catholic Church, or even the Jesuits, of being responsible
for 9/11, are you??? There are plenty of other, more likely
suspects.
I'm not fond of the Catholic Church myself, but I see no good reason
for 9/11 Truth activists to be making statements offensive to
Catholics. The 9/11 Truth movement should welcome people of all
religions (and people of no religion too), in my opinion.
Conspiracy Center
Junior Member
Posts: 11
Diane
Junior Member
Posts: 23
Re: Whore of Babylon
Reply #3 - 09/21/07 at 14:47:52
Am I the only person here who is at all bothered by all this
anti-Catholic sectarian preaching? I'm surprised that no one else
here seems to have objected. And I'm not even Catholic! Are
there no Catholics here?
Everyone, please remember that a great many of NYC's cops and fire
fighters are Catholic. And, it seems to me, the last thing we
need is for NYC's cops and firefighters to think of the 9/11 Truth
movement as a bunch of religiously bigoted nuts.
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Diane
Joined: 20 Oct 2007
Posts: 592
Location: New York City
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| Posted: Sat Nov 10, 2007 5:02 am Post subject: Wiccans as perpetrators of the 9/11 attacks???!!! |
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In the We Are Change thread below, the 9/11 attacks were blamed on ... Wiccans! Not only that, but these "Wiccans" supposedly retained a millenia-old belief in the the necessity of human sacrifice as a religious ritual. And that, supposedly, was the motive for the attacks of 9/11. Crazier yet, a We Are Change board administrator named Rob wrote, "I agree 100%."
I was shocked. I tried to argue in favor of more likely, down-to-earth motives.
| Quote: |
MOTIVE FOR BLOWING UP WTC
quelquechosedautre
Member
Posts: 6
MOTIVE FOR BLOWING UP WTC
08/08/07 at 22:43:51
All the debate has been about MEANS and OPPORTUNITY. To everyone,
MOTIVE seems obvious... but wait a minute - wasn't the cause of the
collapse on 9/11 obviously the planes before we all began to think
about it? Has the MOTIVE really been analysed or is everyone
plumping for the obvious?
Sherlock Holmes reasoned that when all that is impossible has been
removed, then what is left, however unlikely MUST BE THE TRUTH.
I have found a few scraps of evidence. When put together, it is
truly shocking. Everyone rejects what I say as nonsense, not
because they truly believe this, but because their minds cannot cope
with the ramifications.
So... follow my logic.
quelquechosedautre
Member
Posts: 6
Re: MOTIVE FOR BLOWING UP WTC
Reply #1 - 08/08/07 at 22:58:14
To the average man, a big chunk of gold bullion, a few extra votes for
a war etc seem like really great motivation, but for billionaires who
are grouped around the Neo-cons, this would seem like small fry, a
weeks wages if you like. By comparison, would be a hitman and
shoot a stranger in the head and risk the death penalty if you were
offered a meagre 27 cents? So think again...
Consider the following facts:-
1. Reading a staement from a survivor might not say much, but reading
several hundreds and once begins to find common factors, such as:-
- There were regular fire drills, yet on 9/11, they found the fire
doors all mysteriously locked, and many survivors state that they only
got out because, say, someone in the office smashed a fire door open
with a fire extinguisher.
- Security Guards actually tried to
stop people leaving the South Tower after the North was hit, telling
them to go back to work.
- Evidence from a fire fighter on this site states that a message was broadcast to return to their offices.
- No helicopter rescue was attempted.
- The fire doors to the roof were sid to have been locked.
This is beyond accidental. and seems a deliberate attempt to exacerbate the loss of life on a huge scale.
2. Flying two planes into the WTC gave the Neo-cons EXACTLY what they
had wanted, certainly in terms of political capital, but all the
demolition of the WTC by explsives has done is to liberally spray clues
and evidence everywhere. Indeed, had they not demolished it,
survivors above the impact would have been a great source of
headline "their story" of how they survived despite being trapped.
quelquechosedautre
Member
Posts: 6
Re: MOTIVE FOR BLOWING UP WTC
Reply #2 - 08/08/07 at 23:02:31
So why wold the Neo-cons etc blow up WTC when they had already gained
everything from the plane impacts and had everything to loose by
actually blowing it up?
There are many small fry reasons, but none of them would justify the scale of this EXCEPT ONE.
And the reason is so blatant, hidden in plain sight that no-one has considered it.
For, I would sugest that the answer lies on Alex Jones' Bohemian Club video, although even he does not realise it.
quelquechosedautre
Member
Posts: 6
Re: MOTIVE FOR BLOWING UP WTC
Reply #3 - 08/08/07 at 23:18:04
All these Neo-com and Illuminati folk all have the smae symbols and do broadly the same things.
They shower everything with Eys of Horus, Pyramids, the numbers 9, 11,
13 etc, tracing back to the religion of Ancient Egypt or that of the
Ancient Wicca of Pre-Roman England.
So, try thinking like an Illuminati and the anser to this riggle frighteningly appears.
The Ancient Egyptians needed some stability to their worship, so in
3000BC they invented a calendar for their worship, long before the
Julian or the Gregorian that we use now. Some suggest that this
was the work of Imhotep, but others say not. This calendar fell
into disuse, except that the Ethiopian Orthodox Church still uses it
which means that someone is till calculating it.
New
Year's Day was, like today, a big festival in ANcient Egypt. So
according to the Ge'ez Calendar when did the New Year begin in the Year
that we called 2001?
The answer is Sunrise on 11th September 2001.
Now check the facts of 9/11.
At 6.30 on 9/11...
- The sun rose.
- Bush goes out for a private run.
- Norad is sstood down.
- The drills all started.
- The hijackers boarded the planes etc, etc, etc
quelquechosedautre
Member
Posts: 6
The same is true of the Wicca religion under specific sects of it.
The Autumnal Equinox was traditionally the time of festival. BUT,
when they moved from the Julian calendar to the Gregorian in the 17th
century, 10 days were deleted with the 14th September following
straight after 3rd September. So if a purist who believes this to
bne unnatural readds tese days back in, 11th September was the
anniversay of the traditional Wicca festival. And what did they
used to do then? Human sacrifices. People would be locked
into twp huge towers, made out of tree branches. one male, one female
(remember only the North Tower had the broad cast antenna) and then
burnt alive. Andf innocent people were not good enough for this
sacrifice, they had to be a specific type of criminal, namely theives
(can you think of a group more thought of by the average Joe as a grop
of thieves that Wall Street brokers).
Is there anyone who openly adhers to these beliefs? Why, yes! Tony and Cherie Blair.
quelquechosedautre
Member
Posts: 6
So, it all fits the evidence in a way nothing else does.
The demolition of the WTC was the world's largest MASS HUMAN SACRIFICE to PAGAN GODS.
Rob
Admin
Re: MOTIVE FOR BLOWING UP WTC
Reply #6 - 08/13/07 at 10:38:42
I agree 100%, 9/11 was a sacrifice. Also, look into the story of
Samson in the bible, with the two pillars and such. The towers
represent the two pillars, Justus and Boaz. The connections here
are endless!
Diane
Junior Member
Posts: 23
Re: MOTIVE FOR BLOWING UP WTC
Reply #7 - 09/18/07 at 21:43:18
quelquechosedautre wrote: Quote:To
the average man, a big chunk of gold bullion, a few extra votes for a
war etc seem like really great motivation, but for billionaires who are
grouped around the Neo-cons, this would seem like small fry, a weeks
wages if you like. By comparison, would you be a hitman and shoot a
stranger in the head and risk the death penalty if you were offered a
meagre 27 cents? So think again... Depends on
the billionnaire. For those with a lot of investments in
companies with weapons contracts, the resulting wars could mean a LOT
of profit. In any case, PNAC clearly did voice a desire for a
"New Pearl Harbor." I personally am inclined to
believe that 9/11 was the work of a small neo-con cabal, not a vast
conspiracy of all the world's billionnaires. Regarding the locked fire doors, etc., quelquechosedautre wrote: Quote:This is beyond accidental. and seems a deliberate attempt to exacerbate the loss of life on a huge scale.
2. Flying two planes into the WTC gave the Neo-cons EXACTLY what they
had wanted, certainly in terms of political capital, but all the
demolition of the WTC by explsives has done is to liberally spray clues
and evidence everywhere. Indeed, had they not demolished it, survivors
above the impact would have been a great source of headline "their
story" of how they survived despite being trapped.
It wouldn't have been quite as dramatic a "New Pearl Harbor" though,
without thousands of people being killed. The most likely aim
wasn't just "a few more votes for a war," but to justify a CENTURY of
war and imperialism. Quote:New
Year's Day was, like today, a big festival in ANcient Egypt. So
according to the Ge'ez Calendar when did the New Year begin in the Year
that we called 2001?
The answer is Sunrise on 11th September 2001. What is your source for this info?
quelquechosedautre then goes on to talk about the ancient "Wiccans" and
their alleged customs. First, Wicca isn't an actual ancient
religion. It's a modern religion with ancient roots. So I
assume that what quelquechosedautre actually meant to refer to was the
religion of the ancient Celts. However, not much is really known
about the ancient Celtic religion. There was a lot of imaginative
speculation about it in the 1800's and 1900's, but not much actual
archeological evidence. Much of what is known about the ancient
Celts comes from the writings of the ancient Romans, for whom tales of
Celtic human sacrifice served as a good excuse to conquer those
horrible barbarian Celts. This doesn't prove the stories false,
but does cast some doubt on them, or at least suggests the possibility
that they might have been a bit exaggerated. Of
course, many ancient cultures did practice human sacrifice, including
the ancient Hebrews. Clear traces of an older custom of human
sacrifice can be found in the Bible. However, during the thousand
or so years before the rise of Christianity, not only the ancient
Hebrews but many other ancient societies too outgrew and came to abhor
the idea of human sacrifice. Quote: The demolition of the WTC was the world's largest MASS HUMAN SACRIFICE to PAGAN GODS.
quelquechosedautre, do you REALLY believe that the world's
billionnaires have a supersitious belief in gods who require human
sacrifice??? If anything, it seems to me most likely
that rich folks would typically have LESS need for religion of any
kind, not MORE need for religion, than most other folks. Sure,
various elite fraternities may hold initiation rituals that draw on
ancient religious themes. But it seems to me that the most likely
main purpose of the rituals would be group bonding, not any serious
religious purpose. Yes, some rich folks have been serious occultists, but I wouldn't expect this to be true of the majority.
If we don't want the 9/11 Truth movement to be dismissed as a bunch of
kooks, I think we're best off sticking with the obvious, and with the
strongest evidence.
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Hocus Locus
Joined: 23 Aug 2007
Posts: 106
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| Posted: Sat Nov 10, 2007 5:22 am Post subject: |
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| Diane wrote: | | Below is a WAC thread titled "Whore of Babylon," featuring traditional fundamentalist Protestant anti-Catholic sectarian preaching. |
It seems to be mechanical noise -- jamming. Very much like the jamming that used to go on in the shortwave bands.
There's no (sane, or even insane, rational, serious) human being behind it, it's a cut and paste cob job from Internet sources. As one of the faith would say, it offers no original purport. It's not even a cohesive sermon on the subject of the 'Whore of Babylon'.
Notice that all the characterizations, including the one that pegs it as an actual statement of sorts ('preaching') "offensive to Catholics" -- are not the poster's own: these are replying people taken in by the format and the material who assume they're dealing with a human being who has really tried to communicate this material for some purpose. They do not recognize it as jamming.
((( If you're looking for a lowdown on Jezebel that's a fascinating and fun read, see the Tom Robbins excerpt at the end of my post, HL BFN 10-Dec-2006 'Broken Bible Stories' )))
Some of the source pages the WAC job seems to have been cobbed from,
http://infowarsforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=19188
[same poster, diff place later on? pictures and bible quotes]
www.remnantofgod.org/quikfacts.htm
[some, verbatim I think]
www.cwnews.com/news/viewstory.cfm?recnum=42515
[Catholic facts, jammer added commas in 1,098,000,000.]
___
I always wondered, why would she become a 'pillar of salt'? But hold on here. In the desert of that time, even this time, where the fiat coin-stamping fanatics have not overrun the world -- salt is currency. Non-perishable and easily compacted, able to be traded by weight. No substance served as its counterfeit; even so, tip of the tongue would establish its authenticity. In a place where communal access to water was never denied, salt, a substance vital to the health of people and livestock which needed to be carried far from its sources, was the most liquid currency there was...
~Hocus Locus, from 'My take on Lot -- with a grain of salt' |
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imgstacke
Joined: 11 Jun 2007
Posts: 407
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| Posted: Sat Nov 10, 2007 5:49 am Post subject: |
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| Hocus Locus wrote: |
It seems to be mechanical noise -- jamming. Very much like the jamming that used to go on in the shortwave bands. |
HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!! |
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Hocus Locus
Joined: 23 Aug 2007
Posts: 106
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| Posted: Sat Nov 10, 2007 6:06 am Post subject: |
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I'm serious. I've seen many examples, all sorts of subjects. I believe someone is using a jamming software application that pulls things from a database of web page clips and inject bits into 'posts' to targeted places. Even the signup profile names are sometimes taken from elsewhere, and could be automated from some sort of front end. In the days of USENET people were fooling with such stuff, 'babbling programs'. Then the apps were experimental, sometimes the tinkering coder would sign and invite comments on the work. alt.flame and alt.bizarre and alt.test contained many such posts. Related to (and perhaps even using) apps which assemble pages to fool Internet search engines... I believe that technology has been refined by those who wish to alienate people and jam discussion boards.
___
And yes I also caught your drift. Care to elaborate? |
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Diane
Joined: 20 Oct 2007
Posts: 592
Location: New York City
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| Posted: Sat Nov 10, 2007 7:11 am Post subject: |
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| Hocus Locus wrote: | There's no (sane, or even insane, rational, serious) human being behind it, it's a cut and paste cob job from Internet sources. As one of the faith would say, it offers no original purport. It's not even a cohesive sermon on the subject of the 'Whore of Babylon'.
Notice that all the characterizations, including the one that pegs it as an actual statement of sorts ('preaching') "offensive to Catholics" -- are not the poster's own: these are replying people taken in by the format and the material who assume they're dealing with a human being who has really tried to communicate this material for some purpose. They do not recognize it as jamming. |
I'm the only person who replied (as of the day when I saved a copy of the thread, at least). It does not matter to me whether any human thought went into that post. What bothered me was that the poster was, apparently, NOT regarded as a troll by the administrators. There were plenty of other posts on the board by "Conspiracy Center" too, many of them offensive to Catholics, but no one except me seemed to notice. This left me with the impression that religious bigotry must seem perfectly normal to the folks at We Are Change.
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CV
Admin of Doom
Joined: 11 May 2007
Posts: 186
Location: Maryland
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| Posted: Sat Nov 10, 2007 8:26 am Post subject: |
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| Diane wrote: | | This left me with the impression that religious bigotry must seem perfectly normal to the folks at We Are Change. |
Please note that there are now upwards of 20 different CHANGE chapters, many of them fledgling, and I am aware of no pressure to adopt certain views on any issue.
Representation of the spectrum of possible views on issues tangential to 9/11 is sure to diversify as the organization grows.
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imgstacke
Joined: 11 Jun 2007
Posts: 407
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| Posted: Sat Nov 10, 2007 9:46 am Post subject: |
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And yes I also caught your drift. Care to elaborate?
---
Just the version you use is getting better - still has some quirks though - its almost there.  |
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Hocus Locus
Joined: 23 Aug 2007
Posts: 106
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| Posted: Sat Nov 10, 2007 10:17 am Post subject: |
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| Yeah, the personality can be like that sometimes. If it's getting better, thanks for the vote of confidence. ;-) |
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Hocus Locus
Joined: 23 Aug 2007
Posts: 106
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| Posted: Sat Nov 10, 2007 12:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Diane wrote: | | I'm the only person who replied (as of the day when I saved a copy of the thread, at least). |
A hasty gaffe I realized only after imgstacke pointed it out (in a sort of code) and I found the source link. Sorry, didn't tie your name to you (duh) no offense intended!
| Diane wrote: | | It does not matter to me whether any human thought went into that post. What bothered me was that the poster was, apparently, NOT regarded as a troll by the administrators. There were plenty of other posts on the board by "Conspiracy Center" too, many of them offensive to Catholics, but no one except me seemed to notice. This left me with the impression that religious bigotry must seem perfectly normal to the folks at We Are Change. |
There's another reply there now... not from "Conspiracy Center" (hit and run, machinelike I say) but "Quest4Truth", a real human who stops by just to counter your comment and inject the complex meme equation (( 911 >by> globalist >equals> freemasons >implicit-equals> 'Jezebel' >infiltrate> Vatican ~= relevant >i-think> 'clarified' )). No direct mention of Jezebel or your point. Now the attribution to Jezebel was seemingly just a slur of the moment, a misogynistic blunt object if you will (I take no prisoners) to rattle cages, no original purport. Rabid froth with pretty pictures and plenty of bible quote spice is still rabid froth. Truth is, the thread went uncomented until yours appeared is indication of worth to its target audience.
I might see that after a moment's perusal, it's my weigh-in -- and yet some 'Biblical Scholar' might take an apologetic view from the 'anything goes because when it comes to sermons and pulpits, nothing matters' comfort zone. Which is a huge place in the Church, hence its problems. ;--) "Quest4Truth" implicitly thinks its relevant. "Conspiracy Center" and moderators AWOL. In terms of stated opinions score is 1-1. If a members' point system was in place, "Quest4Truth" (Member) would trump "Diane" (Junior Member).
An 'anything goes comfort zone', or 'Big Tent', or what I call 'sermons and pulpits'. I guess it comes down to turf. Who feels possessive enough to police it, take a position on issues to a 'friend or foe' level. An admin alighting on the thread would now see some exchange there so now -- the ante is higher: at a glance an admin might conclude that drastic (or even lenient, like moving) action would step on toes, so no action is taken.
Under a most-recent-posted-topic-shown-first 'bump' system, merely starting a new topic can also be a way to inject noise. If a few ideologists create a whole series of "Look at THIS!!" topics they can bury discussion and change the character of a forum... as others who hit the 'read all posts' time budget start to miss new posts. If administrators take more time to examine top posts in new threads than subsequent posts, and are not squeamish about grouping to existing topics this effect could be minimized.
In the most non-sequitir hard-knock cases, even regrouping new topics to a thread "ADMIN: Explain relevance to 9/11 truth" would become a most popular topic sure, as various 'injured' parties make their cases, vy for the prize of "new thread". Under the bump system it would always be there on top: some disgruntled parties would 'give up' on the debate and just post 'stuff' there. Or fade away, but it is a step removed from censorship and whole-thread wacking.
There is another forum phenomenon I have observed, some folks will start to track changes from the "New message" links that come in email re: threads they have posted to, only. -- but if there is no email digest of 'new topics' sent out, this habit may result in rolling existing topics round and round... blindsight to new topics they'd consider interesting or 'breaking news'.
I can see busy admins themselves could be drawn into an email notify habit... if they become engaged in 'brush fires' inside topics the silliest new-topic creation trolls slowly gain 'free run' of the list.
Admins might give more precedence to first-post topic herding than individual post relevance... or even within-post wording. I'm sure the best ones do it naturally without thinking. Any admin who cares about the subjects duscussed is hard pressed these days. One admin of a stock ticker site never deletes, but there is a forum called "the bilge" where anything could wind up if he's having a really bad day.
And I believe it should be full transparency -- no 'hide/show' point systems only a 'where you'll find it' system. Why? Because hiding systems hurt sincere people who feel slighted to a greater degree than relocation or rank-by-scoring. Even if there is a suspicious or unjust vendetta against a point of view, the default 'anonymous guest access' level that search engines crawl from should eventually find their material -- allowing true-human like minds to converge, even if the ideas seem weird or unpopular to the rest.
It all comes down to weighing in on things and finding a way to make what matters more 'sticky'.
And that's just one weird thread from so many weird threads out there. So many memes have been connected to 9/11 and anti-war effort.
___
In a debate the object is to greet and engage another in honest and noble fashion. If you enter the arena with a tin cup and but a few drops of cherished wisdom, held plainly for all to see… if the spirit be true, others will sample sparse the merest essence; and they may offer bits of their own to vivify yours so all may drink. This is the essence of good sport. If you stroll in regally with what you obviously consider to be a most magnificent fount of crystalline wit, the gambit is for a bigger win or loss, not only in measure but in essence. You are not expected to share freely but must offer a toast. A more perilous gambit: if its essence appears not to be what was represented - even expected - you are simply cast out. No crime has been committed, only the dreariest of shams.
~Hocus Locus, BFN 30-Nov-2006 'BOVIDAE: on the humble cow-greeting' |
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Diane
Joined: 20 Oct 2007
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Location: New York City
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| Posted: Sat Nov 10, 2007 1:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Hocus Locus wrote: | | There's another reply there now... not from "Conspiracy Center" (hit and run, machinelike I say) but "Quest4Truth", a real human who stops by just to counter your comment and inject the complex meme equation (( 911 >by> globalist >equals> freemasons >implicit-equals> 'Jezebel' >infiltrate> Vatican ~= relevant >i-think> 'clarified' )). No direct mention of Jezebel or your point. Now the attribution to Jezebel was seemingly just a slur of the moment, a misogynistic blunt object if you will (I take no prisoners) to rattle cages, no original purport. Rabid froth with pretty pictures and plenty of bible quote spice is still rabid froth. |
This anti-Masonic stuff, by the way, is another religious right wing thing.
First off, the Masons are not an elite fraternity like, say, the Skull and Bones. Many Masons, even many high-degree Scottish Rite and York Rite Masons, are ordinary middle class folks.
Various Masonic groups, mainly in continental Europe, have sometimes played a role in politics (as many other kinds of large organizations have done too). Often they've championed what I would consider to be good causes, e.g. separation of church and state. Some Masonic groups have done what I would consider to be bad things, e.g. the P2 Lodge's invovlement in Operation Gladio. The P2 Lodge, it should be noted, is an "irregular" lodge, not representative of Freemasonry in general. Here in the U.S., the Masons are pretty apolitical for the most part, as far as I can tell.
Disclosure: My grandfather was a Mason, which is one of the reasons why this anti-Masonic stuff annoys me. I don't consider Freemasonry to be above criticism, but the demonization has gotten way out of hand, and some of it is truly ridiculous.
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Diane
New York City Activist
Last edited by Diane on Sat Nov 10, 2007 1:51 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Diane
Joined: 20 Oct 2007
Posts: 592
Location: New York City
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| Posted: Sat Nov 10, 2007 1:48 pm Post subject: |
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| CV wrote: | | Diane wrote: | | This left me with the impression that religious bigotry must seem perfectly normal to the folks at We Are Change. |
Please note that there are now upwards of 20 different CHANGE chapters, many of them fledgling, and I am aware of no pressure to adopt certain views on any issue.
Representation of the spectrum of possible views on issues tangential to 9/11 is sure to diversify as the organization grows. |
I hope so, but is there any discussion about political ideologies?
Without discussion, the most likely default position would be to accept the Gospel according to Alex Jones without any question.
Anyhow, some of the issues I pointed out above are not so tangential to 9/11. For example, I'm wondering: How common is the view that "Wiccans" are behind the attacks of 9/11?
_________________
Diane
New York City Activist
Last edited by Diane on Sat Nov 10, 2007 2:15 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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