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Keenan
Joined: 20 Jul 2007
Posts: 111
Location: N. California
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 Posted: Mon Nov 05, 2007 4:03 am Post subject: |
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| chrisc wrote: | | Keenan wrote: | | with their Cassiopaean Experiment in channeling, they approach it in a scientific way, not in a religious way. |
You are kidding?
| Virellek wrote: | | They claim they are able to talk to ‘aliens’ light years away using an ouija board or interviewing people who are hypnotized. |
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Who is this “Virellek”? I have never heard them claim that they are talking to aliens light years away. They apparently do channeling experiments using the ouija board, that is true. They, in fact, have not claimed to know the identity of the channeled entities, they only report what was channeled. That’s what I know about the *Experiment*. Again, in case you forgot, they call it the Cassiopaean Experiment. I haven’t actually spent much time studying their Cassiopaean Experiment, I tend to read mainly their SOTT news web site, which often contains lots of good information.
The point I was making, Chris, is whether it is a scientific approach or a religious approach, not whether it is an idea or phenomena that should be considered valid or reasonable. You can approach anything in a scientific way (meaning you can run an experiment and report the results), regardless of whether you think it is worthwhile to do or not, or whether the results are valid or not. You seem, again, to be confusing terms here. You are using the term “religious” apparently to refer to a phenomena you consider bizarre or kooky. But, I wasn’t even referring to the phenomena under consideration, I was referring to the *approach* by which I mean you can do it in a scientific way (run an expiriment and report the results) or a religious way (some leader or text proclaiming a doctrine of truth that religious followers are supposed to accept without question based on faith). Do you understand the terms here, Chris?
| Chris wrote: | | Keenan wrote: | So, Chris, you agree that you are using the term "cult" to mean a group who you either dislike, or has claims/beliefs that you disagree with? Again, you are misusing the term, which was my point. If you have any evidence that you haven't shared yet that indicates they are a cult, I'd like to see it. In case you need to be clear about the definition, this may help:
http://wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn?s=cult
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Cult
Noun
(n) cult (followers of an exclusive system of religious beliefs and practices)
(n) fad, craze, furor, furore, cult, rage (an interest followed with exaggerated zeal) "he always follows the latest fads"; "it was all the rage that season"
(n) cult (followers of an unorthodox, extremist, or false religion or sect who often live outside of conventional society under the direction of a charismatic leader)
(n) cult (a religion or sect that is generally considered to be unorthodox, extremist, or false) "it was a satanic cult"
(n) cult, cultus, religious cult (a system of religious beliefs and rituals) "devoted to the cultus of the Blessed Virgin"
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That seems to sum them up, they are clearly a cult. Are you a member? |
Am I a member? Uh, I guess I missed out on being inducted as a cult member…Now I feel cheated! What can you tell me about becoming a member, Chris? Is there some secret meet-up place, some ritual room somewhere where you do some sort of kinky initiation while repeating a mantra over and over again, “Laura is my one and only Leader, I will obey everything she tells me to do, I hereby renounce my connections with the outside world, Oh Laura my savior and has the ONE AND ONLY TRUTH…” Is there some religious practice I’m supposed to be doing?
Chris, you can really be an arse. I used to think you were one of the more reasonable persons here, but your attitude here is a bit over the top. Scornful and stubborn to the point of blindness over being able to objectively evaluate, I have to say, and it is getting a bit tiresome. You have still not provided any evidence that SOTT is a cult that would fit the above definition.
| chrisc wrote: | | Quote: |
The modern definition of a mind control cult...
[...]
A cult will have a slick well-rehearsed Public Relations front which hides what the group is really like.
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So, where is SOTT's slick well-rehearsed Public Relations front?
| chrisc wrote: | | Quote: |
No other organization has the truth, all others miss the mark.
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In a mind control cult any information from outside the cult is considered evil.
[...]
Only information supplied by the cult is true.
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Care to point us to where they assert any of the above? In fact, they pass on information from, collaborate with, and recommend many other sources.
| chrisc wrote: | | Quote: |
They tell you that they are not a cult
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Ahah! That proves it!
| chrisc wrote: | | Quote: |
# End of world pressure.
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Perhaps, but then again, since some very powerful Christians and Zionists in high places seem to be pushing for some sort of apocolypse and trying very hard to bring things to a head, or to World War III, I don't think everybody who is feeling "end of woeld pressure" are necessarily cultists. Perhaps environmental groups should be classified as cults as well based on their predictions of environmental collapse?
| chrisc wrote: | | Quote: |
# Secret knowledge.
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Some of it is esoteric, perhaps, but they certainly aren't the only ones. And they aren't very good at keeping it secret, since they publish it on public web sites and books that are available to anyone.
| chrisc wrote: | | Quote: |
# Single charismatic leader.
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Well, if Laura is considered the "leader", she isn't very charismatic.
| chrisc wrote: | | Quote: |
# Say they are the only true group, or the best so why go anywhere else.
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Care to point us to where they said that?
| chrisc wrote: | | Quote: |
# Experiential rather than logical.
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Well, I haven't found their Experiential inner sanctum yet, just their reading materials.
| chrisc wrote: | | Quote: |
# Asking for money.
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They do not accept advertising on their web site, so, like truthaction.org, 911truth.org, and many thousands of other web sites and research groups on the internet, they ask for subscriptions and/or donations to fund their web publishing and research activities.
At this point, Chris, unless there is a shift in your willingness to have a fair and reasoned discussion based on actual facts, and to actually address the points I’m making, instead of merely offering scorn and false use of terms, I’m quite done discussing this with you. |
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chrisc
Joined: 25 Sep 2007
Posts: 1169
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| Posted: Mon Nov 05, 2007 2:49 pm Post subject: They are clearly a cult |
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| Keenan wrote: | | chrisc wrote: | | Keenan wrote: | | with their Cassiopaean Experiment in channeling, they approach it in a scientific way, not in a religious way. |
You are kidding?
| Virellek wrote: | | They claim they are able to talk to ‘aliens’ light years away using an ouija board or interviewing people who are hypnotized. |
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Who is this “Virellek”? |
See above, s/he wrote the ShoutWire's Insidious Cult article, which I think is very good, well worth reading and all 219 comments.
| Keenan wrote: | | I have never heard them claim that they are talking to aliens light years away. |
The Cassiopeia constellation is made up of objects that are between 50 and 2.5 million light years away, from Laura's Cassiopaea FAQ:
| Quote: | What is the Cassiopaean Experiment?
The Cassiopaean Experiment is essentially an experiment in superluminal (faster than light) communication. |
From the The Cassiopaean Experiment Introduction: Open Your I and Seek:
| Quote: | the communications began with a source identifying itself as "the Cassiopaeans."
"We are you in the Future," they said. "We transmit "through" the opening that is presented in the locator that you represent as Cassiopaea, due to the strong radio pulses aligned from Cassiopaea, which are due to a pulsar from a neutron star 300 light years behind it, as seen from your locator. This facilitates a clear channel transmission from 6th density to 3rd density." |
Of course they proceed to contradict themselves:
| Quote: | The issue of "channeling" as a scientific experiment - utilizing information obtained by such a method - is problematical, to say the least. Again, we wish to reiterate that the "Cassiopaean Source" is NOT, and never has been, a dialogue with so-called "aliens" or "discarnate" beings as they are generally understood.
Most important of all is to remember that we are not talking to "God" or "Spirits" or "Aliens" or any such nonsense. As Laura theorized from the beginning, the communication may very well be a link to hyperdimensional realities, a realm of symbols and images and dynamics and no mystical "mumbo-jumbo" will be tolerated or promoted by us. Not ever. |
| Keenan wrote: | | I haven’t actually spent much time studying their Cassiopaean Experiment, I tend to read mainly their SOTT news web site, which often contains lots of good information. |
Well I suggest that you do spend some time studying their Cassiopaean Experiment, of course there is some good information on their site -- this is how they suck people in, this is why it is there.
| Keenan wrote: | | The point I was making, Chris, is whether it is a scientific approach or a religious approach... Do you understand the terms here, Chris? |
Of course I understand the terms scientific and religious. Do you consider Judy Wood to be a good example of the scientific approach? Many people consider that she is a really bad example... but Laura manages to plagiarise her and take her lunacy one stage further down the road to cloud cuckoo land... 
| Keenan wrote: | | So, Chris, you agree that you are using the term "cult" to mean a group who you either dislike, or has claims/beliefs that you disagree with? |
Yes I disagree with their claims/beliefs, but I don't call all organisations I disagree with a cult, I reserve this terms for cults.
| Keenan wrote: | | If you have any evidence that you haven't shared yet that indicates they are a cult, I'd like to see it. |
Really? There are lots of references above, didn't you follow any of the links? Let me provide them again to help you:
| Keenan wrote: | | Am I a member? Uh, I guess I missed out on being inducted as a cult member…Now I feel cheated! What can you tell me about becoming a member, Chris? |
Glad to hear you haven't been sucked in too far yet... If you want to go to the next stage the instructions are available:
| Quote: | There are prerequisites and conditions for acceptance to the Quantum Future School.
Experience has taught us that some individuals may not be ready for the intensity and volume of the group work or are not interested in questioning ALL of their beliefs.
The candidate must be ready to put ALL of his or her sacred cows out to pasture.
The first requirements are that the applicant must have read all of the Wave Series and the Adventures Series on the Cassiopaea Website. This is essential because the ongoing high level of work that the School does on a daily basis should not be slowed or diverted by the endless asking of questions that are already answered in these series.
As extra preparation, though not required, you may wish to obtain a copy of Laura's book: Ancient Science: A Radical Reassessment of Myth, History,The Legends of the Holy Grail, and the Science of Ascension
The second requirement is a minimum of three month's participation in the public Cassiopaea Forum, casschat, so that the Admission Committee may assess the applicant's grasp of the networking principle.
For those of you who have read Ascension, let us just say, you stand now before the Threshold of the same system that has been transmitted at various points in history and prehistory directly from Celestial Sources to certain groups that have left clues for humanity to follow out of the forest of confusion and delusion as detailed in that volume. |
| Keenan wrote: | | chrisc wrote: | | Quote: |
The modern definition of a mind control cult...
[...]
A cult will have a slick well-rehearsed Public Relations front which hides what the group is really like.
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So, where is SOTT's slick well-rehearsed Public Relations front? |
The Signs of the Times site is their slick well-rehearsed Public Relations front which hides what the group is really like.
| Keenan wrote: | | chrisc wrote: | | Quote: |
No other organization has the truth, all others miss the mark.
[...]
In a mind control cult any information from outside the cult is considered evil.
[...]
Only information supplied by the cult is true.
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Care to point us to where they assert any of the above? |
Sure, it's not hard, take the previously cited Ultra-terrestrials and 9-11 article in which Laura basically says that all of the alternative media and 9/11 truth movement is COINTELPRO:
| Quote: | would anybody care to suggest that it did not also occur to the Powers that Be that the chief means of diverting attention and covering up the truth would be to literally fund and create the "New Age" and "Human Potential movement" so that it would follow their agenda of keeping secrets?
The same is probably true regarding the 9/11 Truth Movement. If nobody has really thought of this, better think again! Probably most of it IS COINTELPRO!
In other words, it is extremely likely that the most successful and popular of Metaphysical Mavens and New Age Impresarios are COINTELPRO agents - either conscious or dupes of those who are. And the same is true of the 9/11 Truth Movement and even the Alternative Media.
The cases of COINTELPRO activities against political groups must be no more than the tip of the iceberg, given that the great bulk of COINTELPRO-type operations remain secret until long after their damage has been done. By all indications, domestic covert operations have become a permanent feature of U.S. politics and Social Programming, and it is hardly likely, considering the evidence, that the New Age and Human Potential fields are exempt.
Or the 9/11 Truth Movement or the Alternative Media.
the human element of the Cosmic COINTELPRO operation manages their many "agents" of disinformation - pied pipers leading the masses of Truth seekers - so that whatever the real truth is remains their secret. And that´s exactly the way they want it.
the 9/11 Truth Movement itself along with much of the Alternative Media, may also be a complete Smoke and Mirrors show.
What seems to be true is that most contactees and channelers are dupes of the military cover-up - victims of COINTELPRO - created to generate the noise that hides the signal of the true Alien Reality. In short, the majority of claims of channelers, contactees, new age gurus, UFO researchers, and the like, both in books and on the internet, about the "alien reality," is COINTELPRO at its finest.
Take that to the bank.
And the same is true of the 9/11 Truth Movement.
One thing is clear: the UFOs themselves are not under the control of the military - or anybody else. But that the Consortium continues to debunk and cover it up - in the face of its violations of their own airspace - suggests to us again the analogy of arrogant and powerful Masters of Reality, aided and abetted by their military and intelligence organization servants who, all the while they are obeying the powerful overlords, which very well may include the 9/11 Attacks and war with Iraq, Iran, and God knows who else, seek to keep everything quiet while they try desperately to discover the secrets of power so as to arrogate it to themselves. |
| Keenan wrote: | | chrisc wrote: | | Quote: |
They tell you that they are not a cult
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Ahah! That proves it! |
Of course it doesn't prove it but it's exactly what you would expect them to say, it's just one bit of evidence amoung loads of evidence...
| Keenan wrote: | | chrisc wrote: | | Quote: |
# End of world pressure.
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Perhaps, but then again, since some very powerful Christians and Zionists in high places seem to be pushing for some sort of apocolypse and trying very hard to bring things to a head, or to World War III, I don't think everybody who is feeling "end of woeld pressure" are necessarily cultists. Perhaps environmental groups should be classified as cults as well based on their predictions of environmental collapse?
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I was more thinking of their "the sky is going to fall in" predictions, for example see their latest YouTube video, Something Wicked this way comes or Laura's article from earlier in the year, Forget About Global Warming: We're One Step From Extinction!:
| Quote: | | one of the themes of the Cassiopaean information is planetary destruction via a Comet Cluster that cycles through the solar system every 3,600 years as a consequence of the orbit of our Sun's solar Companion, a smaller, dark, Twin Sun. |
| Keenan wrote: | | chrisc wrote: | | Quote: |
# Secret knowledge.
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Some of it is esoteric, perhaps, but they certainly aren't the only ones. And they aren't very good at keeping it secret, since they publish it on public web sites and books that are available to anyone. |
I think the secret knowledge is in the interpretation of the transcripts of the "ouija board communications" from the cassiopaeans -- why don't you download the unedited cassiopaean transcripts and try to make sense of them...
| Keenan wrote: | | chrisc wrote: | | Quote: |
# Single charismatic leader.
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Well, if Laura is considered the "leader", she isn't very charismatic. |
You said it...
| Keenan wrote: | | chrisc wrote: | | Quote: |
# Say they are the only true group, or the best so why go anywhere else.
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Care to point us to where they said that? |
See above, they consider all other alternative media site and the whole 9/11 truth movement to be a COINTELPRO disinformation op.
| Keenan wrote: | | chrisc wrote: | | Quote: |
# Experiential rather than logical.
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Well, I haven't found their Experiential inner sanctum yet, just their reading materials. |
Lucky you...
| Keenan wrote: | | chrisc wrote: | | Quote: |
# Asking for money.
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They do not accept advertising on their web site, so, like truthaction.org, 911truth.org, and many thousands of other web sites and research groups on the internet, they ask for subscriptions and/or donations to fund their web publishing and research activities. |
There is one born every minuite isn't there...
| Keenan wrote: | | At this point, Chris, unless there is a shift in your willingness to have a fair and reasoned discussion based on actual facts, and to actually address the points I’m making, instead of merely offering scorn and false use of terms, I’m quite done discussing this with you. |
Good, I'd also be quite happy not to proceed with this discussion either. They are clearly a cult and I just wanted to get that off my chest, I have no interest in persuing the matter any further -- I've got lots of better things to do. |
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chrisc
Joined: 25 Sep 2007
Posts: 1169
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| Posted: Mon Nov 05, 2007 8:53 pm Post subject: The unedited cassiopaean transcripts: 404 |
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| chrisc wrote: | | I think the secret knowledge is in the interpretation of the transcripts of the "ouija board communications" from the cassiopaeans -- why don't you download the unedited cassiopaean transcripts and try to make sense of them... |
Oops,sorry this file is a 404, it's linked to from the front page of cassiopaeacult.com -- I remember reading somewhere that there was some legal fuss over these transcripts -- I don't think Laura wanted anyone else hosting them and they have threatened others to remove them from their sites -- I guess they make her look so daft they have to be supressed...
There are quotes from some transcripts of Laura's ouija board sessions on cassiopaea.org, but these are just selections, see their sitemap if you want to track these down.
If you want the raw transcripts there are currently hosted here, though I don't know how long for -- I found them by searching the net for "cassiopaean transcripts"...  |
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chrisc
Joined: 25 Sep 2007
Posts: 1169
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| Posted: Mon Nov 05, 2007 9:47 pm Post subject: Some amusing bits... |
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| chrisc wrote: | | If you want the raw transcripts there are currently hosted here, though I don't know how long for -- I found them by searching the net for "cassiopaean transcripts"... |
Of course I haven't read all of these, but I have just randomly dipped into a few and I thought the transcript from October 25, 1994 had some stuff in it that would be worth repeating to give people a falvour of what this is about without having to actually read them...
| Quote: | Q: (L) Are there alien bases on the Moon?
A: Yes.
Q: (L) Who do the bases belong to?
A: Grays.
Q: (L) Was there ever at any time such a thing as mermaids?
A: No.
Q: (L) What is the origin of this legend?
A: Sailors delirium.
Q: (L) Are there alien bases on Mars?
A: Yes.
Q: (L) Whose?
A: Grays and Lizards. |
And later in the same session:
| Quote: | Q: (L) What procedure or technology do the Grays use to pass
through solid matter?
A: Transdimensional atomic rearrangement.
Q: (L) How do aliens transport themselves or others on beams of
light?
A: By electron focusing and previous answer. |
And later:
| Quote: | Q: (V) Do I have an implant in my right ear?
A: Yes.
Q: (V) It has been going off a lot lately.
A: Caused by your interactions with these powerful channels.
Q: (V) What do you mean by powerful channels?
A: Laura and F***.
Q: (V) Are they Lizard implants?
A: Yes. Monitoring heavily lately.
Q: (V) When did I get the implants?
A: Age 3.
Q: (L) How come F*** and I cause her implant to Buzz? (V) It buzzes
when I'm not with you guys, too.
A: Set off.
Q: (L) Does that mean that we are controlled by Lizards?
A: They are concerned by V***'s communication with us through
you.
Q: (L) What is their concern?
A: Losing mole.
Q: (L) As in espionage terminology.
Q: (L) Is V*** a mole?
A: Were subconsciously.
Q: (L) V*** wants to know if she is detrimental to the project by being
here?
A: No. Beneficial but the Lizards may resist.
Q: (L) How would they do this resistance?
A: Make her life more difficult just like they have with you two.
Q: (V) But it seems that my life is more on track that it has ever been
before?
A: Watch out. Too late to leave project.
Q: (V) I just heard something in my left ear. Is that also an implant?
A: Yes.
Q: (V) Do they know what we are doing right at this moment?
A: Yes.
Q: (V) Should I stop and go home?
A: Up to you.
Q: (L) Why do the implants go off when they do?
A: Monitoring. They have reasons to monitor when they do. They
can turn on the monitor and read everything that has gone on since
the last monitoring. It is done at their convenience.
Q: (V) Do I have an implant in my left sinus which causes thick
discharge?
A: Yes.
Q: (V) Am I going to be able to blow it out?
A: No. |
And it goes on...
| Quote: | Q: (V) What were the red and green balls of light E*** saw several
months ago?
A: Grays probing.
Q: (V) Was he abducted at that time?
A: No.
Q: (V) Were the probes there because of him or because of me?
A: Him.
Q: (V) Has he ever been abducted?
A: Yes.
Q: (V) How old when first abducted?
A: Two. |
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chrisc
Joined: 25 Sep 2007
Posts: 1169
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| Posted: Mon Nov 05, 2007 11:17 pm Post subject: Sorry I couldn't resist... |
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From the first transcript, July 16, 1994:
| Quote: | Q: (L) Are you from another planet?
A: Alien from your perspective, yes.
Q: (L) What is your group called?
A: Corsas.
Q: (L) Where are you from?
A: Casiopaea.
Q: (L) Where is that?
A: Near Orion. |
| Quote: | Q: (L) Bob Lazar referred to the fact that aliens supposedly refer to
humans as containers. What does this mean?
A: Storage for later use.
Q: (L) Used for what?
A: 94 per cent.
Q: (L) 94 per cent of what?
A: Of all population.
Q: (L) What do you mean?
A: All are containers; 94 per cent will be used.
Q: (L) Used for what?
A: Consumption.
Q: (L) You mean eaten?
A: Total consumption.
Q: (L) What do you mean by consumption? Ingested?
A: Consumed for ingredients.
Q: (L) Ingredients for what?
A: New race. Important. 13 years approximately when project will be
finished.
Q: (L) Why are humans consumed?
A: They are used for parts. |
| Quote: | Q: (L) Have any of us been abducted?
A: All.
Q: (L) How many times?
A: F***-57; S***-56; Laura-12.
Q: (L) Why has Laura not been abducted as much? (Laura laughs)
A: It is not over.
(S*** laughs.)
A: S*** was abducted last month.
Q: (L) Who is abducting us?
A: The other.
Q: (L) What is the name of the group?
A: Different names.
Q: (L) Are we all abducted by the same group?
A: Mostly.
Q: (L) What did they do to us?
A: Gave false memories. Made you inhibited as children. Caused
headaches and sickness at school.
Q: (L) Do we have implants?
A: Yes.
Q: (L) Where?
A: In the head. |
I'll stop now... I think that is enough to give people a feel for these sessions... |
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Diane
Joined: 20 Oct 2007
Posts: 592
Location: New York City
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| Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 2:44 pm Post subject: |
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It might be helpful if those calling this group a "cult" could provide clear, specific, and documented evidence of:
1) Specific objectionable recruitment techniques
2) Specific objectionable indoctrination techniques
3) Scare tactics or other emotional manipulation to keep people in the group
So far, all that's been proven in this thread is that this group has highly unorthodox beliefs, that its founder seems to have emotional problems, and that they tend to have a generally paranoid attitude (e.g. regarding most of the 9/11 Truth movement as COINTELPRO). There has also been some speculation that this group may be using 9/11 in a manipulative way to recruit people, but no definitive evidence of this has been presented here yet. It has also been shown that the group has made some scary prophecies, but it has not yet been shown here how these prophecies are used to keep people in the group.
Personally, I think there's reason to be concerned that, even if this group is not a "cult" in the sense of being a group that abuses its members in any of the ways that have come to be associated with the word "cult" in recent decades, it nevertheless does seem to be interfering with its members' ability to think rationally about 9/11. It is obviously not desirable for a group to be encouraging its members to embrace the wackier hypotheses about 9/11.
_________________
Diane
New York City Activist |
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Diane
Joined: 20 Oct 2007
Posts: 592
Location: New York City
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| Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 3:30 pm Post subject: Re: They are clearly a cult |
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| chrisc wrote: | | The Signs of the Times site is their slick well-rehearsed Public Relations front which hides what the group is really like. |
Many religious groups, including long-established, respectable groups that most people would not call "cults," have public-relations spinoffs that do not preach the religious group's full message. Many religious groups sponsor charitable organizations, for example, and some sponsor journalistic enterprises such as the Christian Science Monitor. It would seem that the "Signs of the Times" website does not have journalistic standards anywhere near those of the widely-respected Christian Science Monitor, but perhaps it aims to play an analogous role. I see nothing deceptive in this, since those who want to find out about the group's religious beliefs are not prevented from doing so.
I see nothing wrong with a religious group having a spinoff that doesn't preach the group's full religious message. In fact, in many cases this is desirable. For example, religious charities, in my opinion, should be primarily about helping people, not primarily about preaching.
I'm not at all fond of the idea of channeling, nor am I at all fond of SOTT's attitudes regarding 9/11 or its attitudes regarding the 9/11 Truth movement, but I think we should be careful about calling a group a "cult."
_________________
Diane
New York City Activist |
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chrisc
Joined: 25 Sep 2007
Posts: 1169
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| Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 8:06 pm Post subject: It's proven for me: Signs of the Times ARE A CULT |
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| Diane wrote: | It might be helpful if those calling this group a "cult" could provide clear, specific, and documented evidence of:
1) Specific objectionable recruitment techniques
2) Specific objectionable indoctrination techniques
3) Scare tactics or other emotional manipulation to keep people in the group |
Sure, if anyone wants to pick this up and run with it that would be fine by me. However it's not something I'm going to do, I've spent quite enough time looking into these people and I've had quite enough of that.
Diane, I guess you read the Laura Knight Jadczyk - Grand Master Channel of the Cassiopaean Apocalypse article and all the material on the cassiopaeacult.com, The Cassiopaean Cult, Stories, Links and Survivors Tales site which are linked to in the first post in this thread before concluding that "I think we should be careful about calling a group a "cult.""?
Perhaps you might also be interested in assessing if 911cultwatch.org.uk have amassed enough material to be able to justify calling the whole truth movement a cult?
| Diane wrote: | | Personally, I think there's reason to be concerned that, even if this group is not a "cult" in the sense of being a group that abuses its members in any of the ways that have come to be associated with the word "cult" in recent decades, it nevertheless does seem to be interfering with its members' ability to think rationally about 9/11. It is obviously not desirable for a group to be encouraging its members to embrace the wackier hypotheses about 9/11. |
It's interesting that you use the term members -- if you don't belive they are a cult it might be more appropriate to use the terms followers or supporters.
I think that the article in which Laura plagiarises Judy Wood and Joe Quinn's articles on Ruppert and Hopsicker, Jim Hoffman and what hit the Pentagon would be worthy targets for a Arabesque style demolition job, if anyone has the time or energy, but I don't think there is anything else that they have done that deserves activists time to be spent on examining it.
If any acadamics or mental health professionals spent some time investigating the "are they a cult?" question I don't think this would be a bad thing but I think there are far better ways for activist to spend their limited time and energy. |
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chrisc
Joined: 25 Sep 2007
Posts: 1169
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| Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 8:57 pm Post subject: "a fraud and an intelligence operation" |
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In the Who are The Cassiopaeans? article by Jay Weidner and Vincent Bridges some interesting points are made (this is one of only a handful of articles I hadn't read until tonight on cassiopaeacult.com). The article is a critique of an article on rense.com which contains:
| Richard Sauder wrote: | | There are many interesting analyses of the present situation. Some of the most interesting I have found are: Mike Ruppert's From the Wilderness, for a great discussion of the Peak Oil and 9/11 issues and also the Cassiopaeans, for an engaging discussion of some of the more esoteric aspects of what is happening and likely to happen in coming years and decades on planet Earth. |
Jay Weidner and Vincent Bridges' take on this is:
| Jay Weidner and Vincent Bridges wrote: | With even a little awareness of Dr. Ark’s background, and it is all on the website in various places, it becomes apparent that the Cassiopaeans may have started out harmless, but they have been hi-jacked and co-opted by some very complex intelligence operation.
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The question of course is why? Why would any intelligence operation be interested in such drivel?
The answer lies in the way Dr. Sauder mixed his reference to Mike Ruppert with the Cassiopaeans. By putting Ruppert on the same level, “interesting,” as the Cassiopaeans, you diminish the value of one, Ruppert, while inflating the value of the other, the Cassiopaeans. Could this be accidental? Hardly…
If all sources have the same value - honest reporting and investigation equals ouiji board channelling - then we have abolished all rules of reason and sanity. Every imagining can be true if you get someone else to believe it is true…In that scenario the clever psychic manipulators win out every time. This is the essence of mind control; nothing is false, everything is true; everything is false, nothing is true, until only the programmer can be relied upon for “truth.” In the world of the Cassiopaeans, only the inner circle, Ms. Knight-Martin-Jadcyzk and her cronies, have a lock on “truth” and they dole it out as needed to keep the crowd coming back for more.
But, and here’s the point, if all sources are the same, and some are obviously false, then no source can be trusted. Mike Rupert’s facts become as speculative as the ravings of the Cassiopaeans. And when the Cassiopaeans are finally exposed for what they are, a fraud and an intelligence operation, then their demise can be used to point at other radicals and independent researchers and say: “See, told you they were all full of it. Just a bunch of crazies spouting off nonsense…” |
OK, now I really am done with these people... |
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Diane
Joined: 20 Oct 2007
Posts: 592
Location: New York City
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| Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 9:00 pm Post subject: Re: It's proven for me: Signs of the Times ARE A CULT |
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No, I have not read all this stuff. However, I feel that the burden of proof should be on those making an accusation, not on others to do background research before asking those making an accusation to provide specifics and/or evidence, if those making the accusation have not sufficiently done so.
I don't hold an opinion on whether this group is a cult. I just think we should be careful about throwing around the word "cult" and related accusations. Anyone who makes such an accusation should, moreover, be willing to answer questions about the basis of that accusation, or to clarify the accusation itself when asked. If everyone followed this rule, there would be a lot fewer unfounded accusations floating around.
| Quote: | | Perhaps you might also be interested in assessing if 911cultwatch.org.uk have amassed enough material to be able to justify calling the whole truth movement a cult? |
It is obvious to me that the Truth movement, as a whole, is not a cult, even if there may some cultish groups within it.
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Diane
New York City Activist |
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Diane
Joined: 20 Oct 2007
Posts: 592
Location: New York City
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| Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 9:14 pm Post subject: Re: "a fraud and an intelligence operation" |
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| chrisc wrote: | The article is a critique of an article on rense.com which contains:
| Richard Sauder wrote: | | There are many interesting analyses of the present situation. Some of the most interesting I have found are: Mike Ruppert's From the Wilderness, for a great discussion of the Peak Oil and 9/11 issues and also the Cassiopaeans, for an engaging discussion of some of the more esoteric aspects of what is happening and likely to happen in coming years and decades on planet Earth. |
Jay Weidner and Vincent Bridges' take on this is:
| Jay Weidner and Vincent Bridges wrote: | With even a little awareness of Dr. Ark’s background, and it is all on the website in various places, it becomes apparent that the Cassiopaeans may have started out harmless, but they have been hi-jacked and co-opted by some very complex intelligence operation.
...
The question of course is why? Why would any intelligence operation be interested in such drivel?
The answer lies in the way Dr. Sauder mixed his reference to Mike Ruppert with the Cassiopaeans. By putting Ruppert on the same level, “interesting,” as the Cassiopaeans, you diminish the value of one, Ruppert, while inflating the value of the other, the Cassiopaeans. Could this be accidental? Hardly… |
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A simpler explanation is that Rense.com itself is an all-around nutty site to begin with, so we simply can't expect Rense.com's writers to distinguish very well between sound stuff and nutty stuff.
There may or may not be some intelligence agency involvement too, for all I know. But the mixing of sound stuff with nutty stuff does not, in itself, constitute proof or even strong evidence of involvement by an intelligence agency. Lots of people are quite capable of being nutty entirely on their own.
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Diane
New York City Activist |
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chrisc
Joined: 25 Sep 2007
Posts: 1169
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| Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 9:20 pm Post subject: Re: It's proven for me: Signs of the Times ARE A CULT |
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| Diane wrote: | | No, I have not read all this stuff. However, I feel that the burden of proof should be on those making an accusation, not on others to do background research before asking those making an accusation to provide specifics and/or evidence, if those making the accusation have not sufficiently done so. |
Well I think there is plenty of proof above and in the sources that are linked to, if you don't that is fine, you can call them something else but as far as I'm concerned they are a cult and I'm going to continue calling them a cult.
| Quote: | | I just think we should be careful about throwing around the word "cult" and related accusations. |
I agree, I can't think of any other group that I have ever called a cult, in writing, before. This lot really do deserve it.
| Diane wrote: | | Anyone who makes such an accusation should, moreover, be willing to answer questions about the basis of that accusation, or to clarify the accusation itself when asked. If everyone followed this rule, there would be a lot fewer unfounded accusations floating around. |
Yeah, well I broadly agree but I have no interest in investigating this group any further, to provide the evidence you demand I have to spend time tracking down their victims and writing up their experiences etc etc, bleugh, what a thought...
| Diane wrote: | | It is obvious to me that the Truth movement, as a whole, is not a cult, even if there may some cultish groups within it. |
Yes, well that is obvious to me also, as obvious as the fact that that Cassiopaeans are a cult. |
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Scott N
Joined: 24 Jul 2007
Posts: 1525
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| Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 9:48 pm Post subject: |
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Always better to read the links before replying, Diane. If this ain't a cult I don't know what is.
Incidentally, here's a picture of Jim Jones before he became a cult leader. He was a door-to-door monkey salesman. I shit you not. How's that for an entry on your resume?
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chrisc
Joined: 25 Sep 2007
Posts: 1169
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| Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 3:13 pm Post subject: Kevin Barrett article in support of "Political Ponerolo |
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Kevin Barrett has written an article in The Canadian, Twilight of the Psychopaths which appears to take a lot from a book it references:
| Kevin Barrett wrote: | | In Political Ponerology, Andrzej Lobaczewski explains that clinical psychopaths enjoy advantages even in non-violent competitions to climb the ranks of social hierarchies. |
This book appears to be one of the key texts of the cassiopaea cult, it has it's own web site and Kevin Barrett's article has been reproduced on their site. |
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Keenan
Joined: 20 Jul 2007
Posts: 111
Location: N. California
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| Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 7:00 pm Post subject: Re: Kevin Barrett article in support of "Political Pone |
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| chrisc wrote: | Kevin Barrett has written an article in The Canadian, Twilight of the Psychopaths which appears to take a lot from a book it references:
| Kevin Barrett wrote: | | In Political Ponerology, Andrzej Lobaczewski explains that clinical psychopaths enjoy advantages even in non-violent competitions to climb the ranks of social hierarchies. |
This book appears to be one of the key texts of the cassiopaea cult, it has it's own web site and Kevin Barrett's article has been reproduced on their site. |
Have you read the article in The Canadian, chrisc? No? What about the book Political Ponerology? No? I didn't think so. As uaual, Strictly an Ad Hominem attack and abolutely no substance. Seems par for the course with you, chrisc.
The book is actually pretty good and explains a lot about psychopaths and how they infiltrate insitutions and social movements. Maybe if you actually read it you can give us an informed opinion about it, ay?
Oh, by the way, chrisc, let us know when you have found some actual victims of this "cult", ok? |
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